Tried All Fluendo Way - Not Really Good Yet

Since I just made a return to OpenSUSE from Debian, I figured I'd have some fun and attempt to do something like Mandriva does in its PowerPack. I am a PowerPack subscriber and so can use LinDVD. The rpm works fine using Install With YaST. Only change is that the word Soundserver must be deleted from the /usr/bin/lindvd file. Don't think I'm completely free to use LinDVD on another distro, it does work. Anyway, I've uninstalled it since I wasn't satisfied with the Fluendo centric setup so went back to the normal use of Packman and ffmpeg, mad, lame based codec installation. Mandriva also uses the full plugin pack from Fluendo so by default the PowerPack has the Windows Media, DivX, newer QuickTime, and mp3 playback support.

I had purchased the Fluendo full plugins pack and recently was informed by them of a new updated version. I figured a new OpenSUSE install was a good way to test it rather than on Debian. Debian's recommendations when their default KDE and Gnome multimedia packages are installed include ffmeg and gstreamer0.10-plugins bad and ugly, which would conflict with Fluendo. It just would be hard to get an idea of how they work if I would be using uncertain judgment about which Debian packages needed to be removed for Fluendo to work properly. OpenSUSE includes none of the patent questionable codecs (except for a licensed Fluendo mp3 codec, which I left on and used instead of the one in the Fluendo full plugins pack as it is a customized OpenSUSE specific one that works with the youap amarok, totem, banshee packages on OpenSUSE.

But I tested all the others. gst-inspect in Gnome showed all were active after I placed them all in /usr/bin/gstreamer0.10.

A big whammy on Fluendo is with QuickTime. All the newer QuickTime codecs play, HD stuff included. However no simple old style .mov files play. I guess they aren't allowed to distribute the older codec and Apple no longer sells licenses for the older stuff so it kind of is impossible for them to adhere to the all licensed and patent allowed codecs within their package.

DivX web content works fine.

Windows Media is another problem. Many audio/video files play fine, but many also cause the totem-plugin to open the page with the full browser window player and then change to a blank browser window when trying to play the file. None of these files are a problem for either the totem-gstreamer with the full assortment of gstreamer0.10 codecs, w32codecs, and gstreamer-ffmpeg installed or the libxine1 assortment of codecs with totem-xine from Packman. But the Fluendo codecs and totem-gstreamer just can't play some of these files.

They are making progress as they now include the older Windows Media codecs that weren't in the older Fluendo package and the quality when compared with ffmpeg is now pretty much equal. It's just that too many files I would want to play would be impossible to get going in this all licensed and patent lawyer happy setup.

I removed the codecs and LinDVD and went back to libdvdcss2, w32codecs-all, mplayer, xine-ui, libxine1, totem-xine and its plugin (I like it better than the mplayerplug-in), lame, mad, and the Packman versions of players and codecs for both xine based and gstreamer based stuff.

I had held off from adding the Packman repo or installing any of those things until trying Fluendo. I am now happy again with the usual setup.

It's disappointing however, that so many codecs cannot lawfully be included in even purchasable packages such as Fluendo's. I suspect that files weren't playing because the codecs simply weren't there. It is possible that adding w32codecs-all into the mix would have enabled the players to play back those things, but that would be defeating the purpose of trying to use Linux in a fully legally licensed way in the United States without resorting to codec packages that are questionable in that regard.

Well, I tried. In my view the legal way is just not good enough to satisfy. I didn't mind purchasing for the privilege of using proprietary codecs while on Linux. However those proprietary companies just aren't selling ALL the codec licenses that are needed for an acceptable user experience. Meanwhile, thank goodness that the codecs are available the OTHER way. I just don't see how they can sue and win if they provide no legal way to use the codecs. So the patents and intellectual properties are essentally worthless to the proprietary companies. It would be impossible for them to enforce that stuff, with the exception of the DRM and DVD stuff that somehow got ludicrous laws passed that hinder users and make criminals of millions of people (like me!) For the rest, they can threaten with FUD all they want but none of it is enforcable.

Not a complaint at all since my post was not a request of any kind, only a report for those interested in a users experience when attempting to do the right thing in the US. Just not ready, if it ever will be, for prime time.

It's really easy to set things up the wrong way in the US using the awesome 3rd party repo we have. And it's completely understandable and correct for OpenSUSE to proceed as it does, not including uncertain codecs in its distribution media and ftp site and making sure that the user experience it the finest it can be by fully cooperating with 3rd party folks, Packman for example, so that users in other countries or users in the US can seamlessly add full codec support, so unofficial or not everything will still work properly.

So no complaints here, just a subject offered that I would think have invited an interesting conversation. I'm only replying to myself because I just can't see why no one is interested enough in this problem for US Linux users. What, everyone who browses the forum lives in Germany? Heh, heh.

I can see where the average user in a non-patent law country wouldn't really be burned up about things since their codec use is completely lawful for them. But users interested in the continual evolution of Linux based distributions to be the best operating systems possible for running a computer, I would think, should be totally involved in discussing, learning about, and seeking any way we can to figure out how to punch holes, squash, whatever, this patent IP law thing that is just one big bug in many countries.

No matter how easy it is to get the proper codecs and software and configure it to play and encode these IP properties, the fact that these procedures circumvent many countries laws is an ethical problem for users. This, no matter the seeming fact I mentioned in the first post that it appears that enforcement of these laws are problematic at best.

It's nice that there are limited ways, such as what Fluendo offers, to get some functionality going. However, when faced with a choice of doing it the way that nearly all things, encoding and decoding, work, or doing it the fully legal way and only getting partial functionalitly, which way will a user go? Most will do it the illegal way. That's a problem, no? I know I don't feel good about it.

So, anyone with opinions or progress reports on these problems to contribute? Are there sites that folks can get or contribute information about this sort of thing? I'm a bit in the dark about that, just seeing occasional discussions on distro forums. I'm just surprised that this isn't a frequent and thoroughly discussed situation all over the Linux interested web sites. It seems to me to be a big problem. Few others really think it is?

Eck,

During my first dabbling with Linux and openSUSE 10.2, I just did not understand why it was such a royal pain to get all of the multimedia up and running. Of course, I did not have anyone standing next to me showing me how to do things either. I was pretty much learning as I went along. After all the forum readings and research online, the dawning light finally allowed me to understand the concepts, as well as the legality, of different distros of Linux.

Am I happy with having to resort to third-party repos for my multimedia codecs? No. Is this enough to push me to another distro that already has them included? No, as long as the codecs are available someplace, even if not necessarily on the DVD, I am sticking with openSUSE. Can I understand why so many people recently posting in this forum are extremely frustrated with multimedia and wireless issues? Yes.

As for what I can do to help, well, I can point new users in the right direction with links as quickly as possible. Even if I do not know the exact answer to the problem, I like to post a quick note to welcome them to the forum and let them know someone is glad he or she has chose to use openSUSE. I am afraid that openSUSE might be losing some users by the small glitches the rest of us take in stride. These new users either quickly abandon openSUSE for Ubuntu or another distro that a friend uses or has heard talked about. Hopefully, they do not revert back to Windows.

I seem to have wandered off on a tangent... What was the original topic? Maybe I need to take a break and go find some more coffee....

Ha! Kaffeine good! Okay, liquid Caffeine, go ahead.

Actually, getting the multimedia all setup hasn't been a problem even back when I first stuck an OpenSUSE 10.2 DVD into my drive and gave Linux a look for the first time. I knew enough from building my own systems, except for my very first computer, and installing Windows and purchasing and installing all my software and drivers that this whole new operating system (for me) would take some research and reading. I did that and had few hiccups.

The point I'm pressing is not which distro enables handling of the questionable codec setup better. I've run OpenSUSE and Debian and have experienced Live several others and have seen that each distro makes them available in different ways but that only a small amount of reading what to do enables this pretty easily.

My point is that anyone interested in using their computers and Linux for multimedia playback and creation that does not live in a patent free country only has a small subset of these proprietary codecs available if one wishes to stay on the fully correct side of their countries laws.

I tried that way, as described in the initial post. Avoided activating the Packman repo, installed LinDVD and the Fluendo complete codec package. So some things played and much did not because of codecs they just are not allowed to provide in a fully patent happy package.

That's not a situation I would find satisfactory. It was sort of how a Mandriva PowerPack DVD setup would be. Nice and legal but missing a bunch of those proprietary things that just aren't provided anymore, older QuickTime stuff and the like.

So I'm all setup and the experience is fine. Quite smooth on OpenSUSE. But not exactly lawful as I'm using things our laws here in the US say I shouldn't be using except on Windows with those licensed things they still have available over there. That's the situation I just wish could be resolved with all the parties.

The ability to use the codecs is there. We're doing it. It's just a matter of the owners of that stuff giving the okay for these non-Windows operating systems to use all this software most of us are using anyway fully legally. Most of us would be a lot happier not classifying ourselves as criminals just to use these formats.

I understand and agree with your view. I am very much in favor of open-source for pretty much everything. I do my best to choose open-source whenever possible.

Do I like being considered a criminal for installing the multimedia codecs from Packman and VideoLan? No. However, with those restricted multimedia codecs, I am not committing any "crimes." I own a few DVDs which I can now watch on my computer. I have some audio CDs that I have ripped and encoded into both OGG and MP3 formats for my own fair use. So, even though I may be using "illegal" software, I am not doing anything "illegal" with it.

Could I get by using openSUSE without resorting to the restricted multimedia codes? Yes. I did that for several months with openSUSE 10.2 when I only had sporadic dial-up access to the Internet. My computing experience may not have been as rich in content as it is now, but it was still much better than dealing with Windows.

As for changing the laws in the U.S., when you look around at all of the young people who are right now changing the way music and video is distributed and licensed, I believe there will be some change. It might not be tomorrow, but all of the young people with their values will become the voting population in due course.

As long as all of the attention is focused on the P2P file sharers, that draws the heat away from the Packman and VideoLan codecs. Plus, any legislation that is positive for the P2P folks should have some positive fallout over our way, too.

Of course, that is just my opinion, and I could be wrong. He, he, he...

Do I like being considered a criminal for installing the multimedia codecs from Packman and VideoLan? No. However, with those restricted multimedia codecs, I am not committing any "crimes." I own a few DVDs which I can now watch on my computer. I have some audio CDs that I have ripped and encoded into both OGG and MP3 formats for my own fair use. So, even though I may be using "illegal" software, I am not doing anything "illegal" with it. [/b]

Except for using illegal software to actually play it. Using illegal software makes what you are doing illegal.

As for changing the laws in the U.S., when you look around at all of the young people who are right now changing the way music and video is distributed and licensed, I believe there will be some change. It might not be tomorrow, but all of the young people with their values will become the voting population in due course.[/b]

You won't see the laws changing in my opinion until that generation starts taking up office. It is slowly happening but it will take time for enough of the generation to become politicians to have the change happen.

That's right, it's illegal in patent countries to distribute software that circumvents copy protection technologies, so that makes us co-conspirators or something by downloading and using it, at least I think. That goes for libdvdcss, libdvdcss2, whatever to make our purchased dvd play. We're supposed to use a licensed player for that.

Same with Windows Media codecs. That, QuickTime and DivX are not available for Linux in patent countries except for that Fluendo purchase way. Unfortunately I found that a lot is playable using Fluendo but some is not and some that is supposed to be playable doesn't work right. Our 3rd party codec package and player sites and developers let us patent country people get all that stuff working. And of course the rest of the world can use them without a qualm of worry as the proprietors may wish it were illegal there but there's nothing they're able to threaten because those governments don't recognize these software patents and intellectual imaginary property stuff.

Only 3rd world countries like the United States and a few others pander to big money and pass crazy laws so criminal activity is encouraged and big companies can hoard as much money as they can. This, to the detriment of the consumer.

Free Software advocates using things that won't bump heads with these crazy laws, ogg and others for music, watch your dvds on your stand alone player instead of the computer, etc. But the web and the popularity of playing and encoding audio/video in popular formats and playing dvd on the computer make it tough to convince the average user to be so religiously dedicated as all that.

Most folks want cake and be able to eat it too. And many wouldn't mind mixing some proprietary stuff that is quite good and useful with free software, and most do. Unfortunately proprietary vendors aren't so quick to think about users of Linux in general. Many, many do consider and support Linux these days but many, many still do not just the same.

It's just, a problem. We work around it like it's a bug. And we squash a lot of it, eh? However there is still that weaselly feeling that we just broke some law. I hate that!

Gonna make some backups of a few of my dvds tomorrow. There's another stupid law for you. Guess I'm going to that hot place when I go, eh?