Litany Of Disasters

On the verge of tearing down SuSE and going with the French distro[0] at this point. This is no way for any company to behave but it breaks my heart when a Linux vendor goes this badly wrong.

[0] A colleague upgraded MDK9.0 to 9.1 and ended up rolling back, so badly did that break. So it's not just restricted to SuSE. Wonder why 9.1 is a cursed version?

These are just the issues I've discovered so far in two and a half days of using 9.1. Some of these are annoyances, others are showstoppers (PCMCIA support for one).

I'm posting this entire list even though certain bits have been posted individually elsewhere in this forum, in the hopes that anyone thinking of "up"grading to 9.1 from 8.2 can at least know what they are likely to get into. Also there's a chance someone at SuSE might read this and either provide some assistance, or at least realise how badly things broke. Screenshots referenced in the below list will be available soon at http://thebigmachine.org/SuSE9-1upgrade_disasters.html

To be fair, some of the items on the list are application-level issues; I'm including them because these are apparently examples of 'if it ain't broke, fit it til it is', and because they should never be in a production release.

FWIW, everything worked *perfectly* under 8.2. The only reason I have not yet rolled back is I'm hoping I can find solutions to all of the issues; that, and I don't trust the SuSE installer to not hose things badly when downgrading.

Let the pain ensue..


X
=========
Broken ATI Radeon 9000 support.
Much fighting with SAX, Yast, and X config to get 3D working. Still not got
proper 3-button emulation on trackpad (USB mouse works ok, but sometimes I
like to only use the trackpad).


Gnome 2.4/ GTK
==============
awful icon scaling - ignores transparent pixels in icons (see gnome-ss1.png).
bad bad font rendering in some cases (compared to 2.2). Hard to explain
without reference to prior version.
Did not correctly migrate over old settings.
Cursor appears randomly as 'timer', although this appears to have sorted
itself out.
Occasionally ctrl+alt+cursor keys results in deskpane-switcher remaining
visible after keys have been released (see gnome-ss2.png).

GTK errors concerning themes. No automatic migration from prior version.
(pixelize:6056): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: "pixmap",

No automatic migration of existing GDM themes; required re-installation.


Gimp
=========
No RPM for Perl Gimp module. Had to be downloaded/ installed separately.
No automatic migration of 1.2 config.


Perl
=========
No automatic support for prior version.


VMWare
=========
Just plain broken.
Error when re-running vmware-config.pl
make[2]: Entering directory `/tmp/vmware-config1/vmmon-only/driver-2.6.5-7.95-default'
../linux/driver.c:25:27: linux/wrapper.h: No such file or directory
this following instructions found on VMWare's community site
(http://www.vmware.com/community/thre...essageID=41131)
as well as SuSE's own support site
(http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/in...showtopic=2151).

soupcan:~ # ls -l /usr/src/linux
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 16 Jul 20 21:15 /usr/src/linux -> linux-2.6.5-7.95

Got VMWare working again finally, although there are some X/ driver issues to
deal with. Also starting vmware seemed to cause keyboard keys to not repeat -
this issue went away when either vmware was exited or gnome-control-center was
used to reset keyboard repeat (both were done at approx the same time).


Galeon, Opera
=============
Both 'lost' config even though config directories had not been changed. Might
have been due to crashes - each browser crashed at least once following
upgrade (crashes were extremely rare before in Opera and never experienced
in Galeon).


Vim
=========
Several changes to syntax colouring/ filetype handling caused existing files
with non-native types (e.g. *.t files declared as ft=perl) to not work
correctly (e.g. perl is set up with 'cindent', but *.t files did not inherit
this behaviour even though declaration '# vim:set ft=perl :' exists in file).


Pine
=========
Very odd random characters appearing after index list on 2nd blank line
following list (see pine-ss1.png).
(5.8.0) libraries.



SCPM
=========
Would not initialise until rpm -e and re-install. Luckily was able to replace
old config.


Powersave
=========
Conflicts with existing ACPI settings (and acpid). No information provided on
how to migrate/ which to use.


Sound
=========
Annoying hiss using default mixer settings. Alleviated by setting output of
digital1, phone1 in & out, and video to 0. However hiss seems to return any
time sound (e.g. xmms) is stopped and restarted. How frustrating.

Re-running YAST2's hardware configurator didn't solve the problem.

xmms will crash with seg fault when loading a .m3u file about 50% of the time.
PCMCIA
==========
802.11b: worked fine.
Secure Digital: PCMCIA adaptor loaded ok but would not mount the file system -
although it mounted ok according to 'mount', the file system itself could not
be read. Jiggling options in /etc/fstab only resulted in confusion and less
success. Various dmesg output includes (truncated/ cleaned up):

subfs: unsuccessful attempt to mount media (256)
cdrom: This disc doesn't have any tracks I recognize!
cdrom: open failed.

Although the device in question is not a cdrom!

Also:
soupcan:~ # grep hde1 /etc/fstab
/dev/hde1 /media/floppy subfs fs=floppyfss,user 0 0
soupcan:~ # mount /dev/hde1
soupcan:~ # mount | grep 'hde1'
/dev/hde1 on /media/floppy type subfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,fs=floppyfss)
soupcan:~ # ls -l /media/floppy/
/bin/ls: /media/floppy/: No medium found
soupcan:~ #

I've no reason to suspect this device is on anything other than hde1 since
that's what it was under S8.2, although I have tried other devices to no avail.

Other
=========
Volume Control applet did not save settings if Gnome is exited without VC
applet being closed first.


System Spec:
NorthStar Laptop
P4 2.6Ghz
40Gb HDD
512M memory
ATI Radeon 9000 video
SIS-xxx for just about everything else (on-board network, sound etc)

From what I've read, most folks recommend doing a clean install instead. Linux is moving too fast to make it seamless. Some folks have done a 9.0 to 9.1 upgrade, but I've not heard of any successful 8.x to 9.1 upgrades.

Keith, thanks for your quick reply.

It would be useful if the installer refused to allow that upgrade path, then, or at least warned that it might be less than successful.

I really don't want to spend another day re-installing on the off-chance it fixes the remaining issues; especially given that the chances are extremely high that I'll be required to go and re-fix the ones that are now resolved. Also, given the nature of some of the problems (Gnome, for one thing), I doubt a fresh install will provide any kind of cure.

I would expect this kind of response if I were running some other OS from somewhere in Redmond, say. But to be told that major *linux* releases are no longer upgradable is somewhat surprising, not to mention disheartening.

while the installer doesnt warn you, i believe there is documentation on this. this pertains to any distro. going up a whole version as far as upgrade, is unadvisable. i can remember this advice from back in mandrake 8.0 days.

Because of the pace of change, I'd see going from 8.2 to 9.1 as being a lot like going from Windows Me to Windows XP. One can do it, but it's painful.

I'm not saying 9.1 is without issues, cause some folks have had trouble with it, but I think it's at least comparable to anything else out there. My Gnome in 9.1 is much better than it was in 9.0, and I spend about 40% of my time there. No problems with install or usage. Same for the KDE side.

I have some issues outstanding...primarly my usb scanner, but I'm very pleased. Wish I was more help...I never used 8.x, so I don't have any experience to draw on. There are others on the board who might have a better perspective. Hang in there...

Originally posted by linux_learner@Jul 23 2004, 17:37
while the installer doesnt warn you, i believe there is documentation on this. this pertains to any distro. going up a whole version as far as upgrade, is unadvisable.

A very true statement, and SuSE repeatedly states in its online docs that it does NOT recommend that anyone do a non-clean upgrade with any released version.

Now....I am not one to follow the advice of a bunch of "know-it-all" programmers and in-house development staffers, so I tried to skip a clean install once and it was a really bad experience. I quickly started over, did it the recommended way, and save a sound card issue was very pleased.

I have seen on the various boards that people were actually able to do non-clean upgrades, and did in fact report back with successful accounts. This is why I never tell people they shouldn't even attempt the process.

However, that was not my experience and so I usually just point out what SuSE advises. In fact, their website used to not even recommend a upgrade of any kind unless you were using < version 8, or had some very specific kernel problems.

Well, following the advice of people on this forum I took the opportunity to install 9.1 from scratch and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised - after making sure my data partitions were safely backed up, the install went without a hitch.

Still a couple of niggly items remain:

o Gnome is ignoring transparent pixels and I can't find how to turn this off.
o Still some issues mounting secure digital cards via PCMCIA, although I did get it to mount once so I'm thinking this is an automount/ pcmcia-subsystem timing issue.
o Sound driver initialises with awful hiss. Setting 'digital1' volume to 0 cures the problem until the next time the sound driver is started (which could be stop/start playback of an mp3). This is *very* annoying.
o XMMS crashes on track selection about 50% of the time.


Other than those, though, I'm glad to say 9.1 gives me most of the warm fuzzies I got from 8.2.

Thanks for all assistance.

Glad to hear you've got most of it working now.

Have you done a search for updated drivers for your SIS soundcard? Also, there have been a couple of fixes posted in the forums for hissy sound, have you tried those?

I have to say, Linux on laptops is a rather hit and miss affair - I had a nightmare with my Acer Travelmate 290LMI, but loads of success with an older Toshiba Sat. Pro 4600.

If this were a brand new laptop and a brand new install of SuSE I might say you had a point. As it is, I had everything working just fine under 8.2 - including sound (no hiss), gnome (no stupid broken workspace controls, and no stupid broken icon resizing[0]), and pcmcia (no stupid cardctl eject; cardctl insert; cardctl eject; cardctl insert; hoops to be able to read secure digital cards) - for over a year.

[0] For fun iconography see my install notes.

Why upgrade, then, if there are so many issues? I needed to run mysql 4, plus I wanted to see what was new, and what all the fuss about the 2.6 kernel was for.

At this point I'm thinking the linux development community has been invaded by wintrolls looking to give linux a bad name.

I'm only half joking.

So looking for updated sound drivers seems rather pointless. I can't tell if the problem is due to gnome resetting the 'digital' volume to max when I clearly set it to 0 (alsamixer doesn't have a 'digital' setting but it does have an IEC958 setting, which according to google has wreaked havoc in KDE), but I have to say I rather suspect gnome at this point (alsamixer never shows the IEC958 setting as having a value other than 0).

I've tried all the fixes mentioned in the forums. I don't think the problem is with the drivers, though if anyone knows better I'd be glad to hear it.

I've successfully run various versions of Linux on laptops (as well as desktops and servers) for several years. While /installing/ has been hit & miss (I couldn't install SuSE on my old Vaio because SuSE didn't provide PCMCIA cd-rom drivers during boot; however RedHat 7 worked just fine), I've never had such problems with system configuration as with 9.1. Again, if this stuff hadn't worked flawlessly under 8.2, I'd say you have a point.

Some might think I'm being picky, and maybe I am, but I'm a linux party hardliner and therefore willing to work through these problems. It is unlikely a windows user trying linux for the first time would have the patience to put up with these issues for very long.